Are Post Workout Carbs still considered effective

[dave]

Science it is then:

Insulin increases transports glucose into cells. So increasing it post workout will increase synthesis of glycogen. Important for recover. It also will facilitate the transfer of amino acids into the muscle cells to promote protein synthesis. Important for building (and rebuilding) of muscle.

Now if you are to spike insulin pre-workout you will increase the glucose and amino acids being delivered to your muscles during the workout by increasing the amount of them available in your blood and by having increased insulin available to promote transfer of these nutrients.

Now you have the fuel available and the delivery system in place for better recovery. Now ingesting nutrients during the workout is a little less perfect as during exercise the stomach and intestines blood supply is dramatically reduced due to a greater need to provide blood for the muscles. So if you are drinking a shake that is easy to digest it will still get out, but it will not be as effective as the pre and post workout shakes due to lower blood supply and therefore slower transfer and transportation to the muscles. Many people like to consume essential or branched chain amino acids during this time (5-25g depending in preference) as they are easily absorbed and (as the term states) essential to protein synthesis.

Post workout you really want to have enough glucose to provide to optimal glycogen restoration to promote a faster recovery and enough surplus amino acids to provide the fuel for muscle creation. As exercise has ceased your body is slowly moving back to normal and when you eat you will be having more blood around to transport nutrients once again.

So if you look at it that way Pre workout and Post workout insulin spikes are more effective but taking in some glucose and aminos (EAA or BCAA) during the workout would still be beneficial. You want glycogen synthesis happening as fast as possible and you want a large surplus of amino acids circulating for muscle repair and construction.

Now there are some other reasons why the 3 shakes are suggested, one is that by providing more than ample aminos in the blood stream during exercise (already provided by a pre workout shake though) that muscles will not be broken down for energy. This is really a pretty useless argument as during high intensity exercise protein use is so minimal it is not important (tested and proven in many studies) and if you have a pre workout shake you should already have high circulating amino acids in the bloodstream. Now post workout that may be a different story as your are replenishing energy stores without expending energy anaerobically so there may be some utilisation of amino acids to create glycogen, but once again this would be small but it is always best to make this use as minimal as possible. The only times your body will break muscle down (actually it does this all the time constantly breaking it down and building it again) to use as aminos is for long distance exercise, your body sensing you do not need it (you stop lifting) or if you are not feeding it enough calories (one very important point for putting on size). If you have extra cash then taking in BCAA's or EAA's during the workout will not hurt and I would suggest taking them throughout the day too if you have money to spare as this would increase the amino acid supply for your muscles and for your body to utilise as energy meaning a positive amino surplus for muscle repair and no reason to need to breakdown muscle (as long as you are still using it).

[Chris 300]

Thanks once more for the reply. It appears well written and thought through, with concepts and information which is in support of what i have read and learnt before.

Referring back to the title of this original post "Are post work out carbs out dated?", once could argue using the information you have posted that no simple sugars post workout are not outdated, and are vital in order to perform two function, firstly to ensure sufficient glucose to provide optimal glucose restoration and secondly to facilitate the transfer of amino acids to the muscle cell via creating an insulin spike.

However, there are situation in which ingesting simple sugars may not achieve these goals. Notice i say may, as i am don't claim this to be fact, and am interested in other opinions (hence posting here in the first place)

If we take glucose restoration firstly. In the scenario where one takes a pre and or during workout shake that contains simple sugars;

Glucose restoration has been taking place pre and during workout, which raises the question will there be a significant glucose deficit in either the muscles or the liver. Perhaps in long distance or endurance based activities this may occur, but in the average 45-60 minute resistance workout ? Even in the scenario where there may be a deficit we are all going to have a solid post workout meal 1 to 2 hours later which should restore any remaining deficit, and as we are ritually taking a pre workout shake then you are ensuring that you are loaded with glycogen before you next use your muscles. In addition for anyone who is looking to improve body composition this could be an issue, as a liver and muscles fully loaded with glycogen make fat loss difficult to achieve.

Secondly the creation of an insulin spike. In the same scenario where one consumes a pre and or during workout shake loaded with amino acids proteins and simple sugars;

Simple sugars have been consumed pre and during, creating an insulin spike. Are further simple sugars necessary in order to re-elevate insulin ? When one considers that catecholamines are released in response to resistance training, (catecholamines are inhibitory hormones to insulin, in that they promote glucose mobilization from both liver and skeletal muscle glycogen, the implication of this being they inhibit the action of insulin) is this an optimal time to ingest further carbs in an effort to capitalize on insulin ? Add in the fact Leucine is known to stimulate insulin production and maybe that could be considered a sufficient attempt to create an insulin spike in a window of time where it may already be elevated and we know there are inhibitory hormones in the blood.

Perhaps when one considers the above points protocol B that i suggested in a previous post, where simple sugars amino acids protein are consumed pre and during and a EAA protein consumed post workout could be reasoned to be the best option.

[dave]

Now we are going passed the basics, I'll go into it in more detail later as I am at work. But yes using insulin to blunt cortisol abd glucagon is one of the main points of using sugars. Though if you take a preworkout shake with simple sugars your insulin levels should be enough to alleviate this then using a post WO shake would help alleviate this post workout. The use of leucine will increase insulin levels but (I can not remember off the top of my head) the levels are still low when compared to sugars affect of insulin secretion. So if you are already getting lots of insulin pre workout leucine use during workout may not have much of an effect, though as I said if you have the money to spare or get it from a sponsor then taking it to make sure there is no drop below the levels that leucine can stimulate wouldn't hurt but to the average Joe to cost to benefit ratio would be small. Now as you pointed out if you were limiting carbs then yes use of leucine would be smart.

[Chris 300]

I guess that is were things become tricky... as you said using sugars pre and during workout will stimulate insulin, but how long does this remain spiked for ? That may be one of the deciding factors in whether or not to include carbs post workout. Consider this in combination with your goals i.e mass or cutting phase. On the issue of Leucine, my thoughts would be to include it as an EAA, not necessarily because it is insulinogenic, but because it may be a nice insulin boosting EAA if you do not feel that insulin will have dropped significant amounts by not including carbs in the post workout shake.

There end up being so many variables it can be hard to reason things through to one definite conclusion. It is good to hear other peoples reasoning and understanding of nutrition and know that i am some way to being on track

Thanks again for the input

Chris

[dave]

There are loads of differing opinions by people who have researched it a lot more than I have. Some believe due to protein being able to saturate cells (marked by no increase in protein synthesis with added insulin or protein) without the need of a high insulin spike that not ingesting carbs but ensuring enough leucine is present to promote just enough of an insulin response is all that is needed. So they may take a WPI with added leucine or EAA's with extra leucine to get this effect. These people are removing the glycogen replenishment and lowering of catchecholamines from the equation though and just focussing on the fact that protein synthesis is all important. But the when you look at the fact that an insulin increase also promotes a subsequent cortisol release they both play the opposites of each other BUT we only want insulin up and not cortisol BUT it's impossible to do. So maybe limiting insulin to just enough to get the maximal protein synthesis and a reduction in glucagon is best. Then without the extra increase in cortisol (which will be increasing anyway during exercise) you may be more anabolic than just going nuts with insulin. As you can see it is a pretty tough topic in theory as it really depends on how much hormone secretion you can get and how much the hormones interact with each other and cancel one another out etc. But glycogen restoration with a limited insulin increase may be a better idea in the end to promote lower cortisol but then again the insulin increase may cancel out the effects of cortisol enough to warrant its use. You would really need to research a lot into the latest studies to get this info and at the moment (I am doing my masters in Exercise Rehab so I am really working on musclo-skeletal stuff not endocrinology stuff at the moment) I do not have the time to delve further. It is something I would do later on though as it is a really finicky subject. That is why I suggested just doing whatever is within your means and keeps you consistent, as there are differing opinions that all make sense physiologically (theory).

So in summary the increase of Insulin needed depends on its affects on mitigating Glucagon secretion and Cortisol's effects while promoting protein and glycogen synthesis. Keeping your blood supplied with amino acids (glutamine and BCAA's especially) and glucose is also an important factor to keep cortisol's catabolic effects in hand is also important. Now if you took in EAA's and a small amount of glucose during your workout to keep your blood amino and glucose levels up this may mitigate some of cortisol's damage, something like 20g EAA's with 10-20g glucose sipped over the workout. A pre insulin spike will inhibit glucagon and promote insulin secretion which in turn would promote protein synthesis and glycogen synthesis and for this you may want 20-30g glucose and either 20g EAA's or 20g WPI. Post workout the replenishment of glycogen stores, mitigation of cortisol and continued promotion of protein synthesis is important so maybe a large insulin spike then is not as needed as pre workout. Just a side note Vitamin C supplementation (over 3 grams a day) is supposed to reduce your cortisol, so that may also be good to take in some Vit C PW. So you may want to take in 1-2g of Vit C, glutamine and BCAA's (either in a WPI or EAA complex or both together) and ingest 10-20g glucose.

[Derek Amos]

Phew !!! I need carbs after that load of info'. DA

[dave]

I was having a break from studying

[Chris 300]

I think i'll stick to adding the simple carbs in the pre and during shake and no carbs but 5 or 10 grams of leucine in the post workout. As you said we will never know exactly what is happening with hormones and all the other variables but one can at least take educated guesses !
Thanks... Chris

[dave]

Sounds good, either way I think you have your bases covered fine.

[Dr J]

The definitive answer is to go with something (anything really, but preferably in a sensible way), see what happens, if it's what you're after stick with it, if not adjust.

J

[Derek Amos]

I think i'll stick to adding the simple carbs in the pre and during shake and no carbs but 5 or 10 grams of leucine in the post workout. As you said we will never know exactly what is happening with hormones and all the other variables but one can at least take educated guesses !
Thanks... Chris

10 grams Leucine would be better than 5g in this case. DA